Greetings all,
I’ve been on and off attempting to translate the classic, The Art of War into Mando’a and I’ve just finished chapter one. Honestly I’m not sure why no one has done it before, I mean if any book would be perfect for a Mando’ade… My translation mostly used the dictionary from mandocreator and the forums from here, but I still feel I’m missing some pretty glaring flaws in what I have currently translated. I’m hoping someone here wouldn’t mind looking over my work and helping me improve my understanding of Mando’a.
Please and thank you for the help!
The Art of War
Gotal’mesh be Akaan
By Sun Tzu
Sun Tzu
Chapter One
Miit’tsad Solus
I. Laying Plans
1 Tsikador Dajune
1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State.
1 Sun Tzu ru’sirbu: gotal’mesh be akaan orine jaon’ynce alom.
2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.
2 Bic tionas be oyac bal kry’am, goyust ogir’olar morut’yc ra haran. Jor’bic bic kebi tionir meg liser bat nayc cuyir digu.
3. The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.
3 Gotal’mesh be akaan jor’bic alori de rayshe’a darasuum parile cuyir dajuna par o’r gar mirgaanla, tion’tuur kebbu ja’hailir bana o’r kyrbet.
4. These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
4 Ibice: (1) Ijaat An’gyce; (2) Tra; (3) Veh; (4) Al’verde; (5) Tolase bal Kov’briik.
5,6. The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.
5/6 Ijaat ang’yce gotal’u droten cuyir solus ti val alor, ibac val shekemir kaysh ne’mirgaanla be val oyayc, dar’chaab de an burk’yc.
7. Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons.
7 Tra gaigotalu ca bal tuur, ciryc bal nadala, ca’nara bal canar.
8. Earth comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death.
8 Veh gaigotalu chaaj, ori bal kih; buruk bal morut’yc; tenn vhetin bal shib spirba; cuyete be oyayc bal kyr’am.
9. The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.
9 Al’verde gaigotalu jate’amman be suvarir, hayc, dinu’yc, mirshko, bal kov’briik.
10. By method and discipline are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure.
10 Cuyir goy bal kov’briik cuyir suvarir joruu be akaan’ade bic staabi paril shaadla be kedin o’r alom, tayli goyust cuyir oyu’galan ret olaro akaan’ade bal ke’gyce akaan waadas’primmur.
11. These five heads should be familiar to every general: he who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail.
11 Ibice rayshe’a kovid enteyor cuyir buyaci anay alor: kaysh tion’ad kar’taylir bic liser cuyir parjir; kaysh tion’ad nakiar’mir trattok’or.
12. Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise:
12 Jor’bic, gar mirganla, tion’tuur kebbu j’ahailir akaan bana, bic cuyir gotal ruusaar be ja’haili, ibic goy:
13. (1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law?
13 (1) Megin be t’ad alore haili ti Ijaat an’gyce?
(2) Which of the two generals has most ability?
(2) Megin be t’ad verd’alore jatnese be jatnese?
(3) With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth?
(3) tion’ad tayli riye teh tra bal veh?
(4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced?
(4) Bat megin eso kov’briik or’ne ruus’sa ru’vaabi?
(5) Which army is stronger?
(5) Megin akaan’ade kotyc?
(6) On which side are officers and men more highly trained?
(6) Bat megin eso alore bal verde or’ne laamishya ru’baj’hibir?
(7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?
(7) O’r megin akaan’ade ogir or’ne arasuumir bintar o’r ber bal gratii?
14. By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat.
14 de goy be Ibice e’tad mirgaanla ni liser ven’dajunar parjai ra rohak.
15. The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat:--let such a one be dismissed!
15 Verd’alor ibic sushir net miite bal narir bat, shukalari vercopa solus cuyir tayli alom! Verd’alor ibac sushir naasad net miite me narir bat, aarayir rohak: vercopa solus cuyir ba’slanar!
16. While heading the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful circumstances over and beyond the ordinary rules.
16 Vaal sushir orilin ner miite joruur gar be an pirimmuy bana jaon bal suum nu’amyc an’gyce.
17. According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans.
17 Bid bana riye, solus enteyor am solus dajune.
18. All warfare is based on deception.
18 An akaan ruusaar bat hodar.
19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
19 Jor’bic tion’tuur liser ram’or, mhi enteyor jenarar laandor; tion’tuur pirimmur cuun trat’ade, mhi enteyor jenarar arasuum’la; tion’tuur mhi pirebu, mhi enteyor gotal’ur aru’e urmankalar mhi chaaj’yc be’chaaj; tion’tuur chaaj’yc be’chaaj mhi enteyor gotal’ur kaysh urmankalar mhi pirebu.
20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
20 Taylir dayn jekai yacur aru’e. Jehaatir dar’ke’gyce bal shuk’orok kaysh.
21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
21 Meh kaysh morut’yc an taap, cuyir tsikala par kaysh. Meh kaysh o’r jatnese kotyc eyaytir kaysh.
22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
22 Meh gar aru’e be a’den aman, kebbur takisit kaysh. Jehaatir cuyir laandur, ibac kaysh ret drashaar g’yail’kayst.
23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.
23 Meh kaysh honor kaysh udes dinuir kaysh nayc udes meh kaysh trat’ade solus, dar’tome.
24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
24 Ram’or kaysh vaii kaysh ru’tsikadad olaror vaii gar naasade ven’dajunar.
25. These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.
25 Ibice akaan an’gyce alori parjai, enteyor naasad cuyir din’kartay vaar.
26. Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose.
26 Jii verd’alor tion’ad parjir akaan gotal’ur ori’sol mirdir o’r kaysh yaim ru akaan akaanir. Verd’alor tion’ad trattok’or akaan gotal’ur al kisol mirdir sol’yc. Bid vaabir ori’sol mirdir alorir parjir bal kisol mirdir ruhakar tion’solet nayc mirdir an! De kar’tayl ibic taap ibac ni liser ven’dajunar tion’ad ven parjir ra trattok’or.
Translating The Art of War
-
Vlet Hansen
- Verd
- Posts: 688
- Joined: 15 Sep 2012 14:49
- Location: Trans-Hydian borderlands
- Contact:
Re: Translating The Art of War
Now, I often come up with interpretations of things that not everyone agrees with, so bear that in mind when I make suggestions.
I'm a little conflicted about gotal'mesh for art, since that implies to me "to create beauty" which kiiinda works, but in this context I feel like art more means a skillful execution of a craft. Maybe something from bor as a root?
Line 1, typo on jaon'ycne.
Line 2, I'd say maybe just morut, to keep it noun and noun.
Line 3, I like that you're actually writing in a Mando'a tone, without using every single article. That's great! I'd suggest replace dajuna with ulu, I think it's a bit closer to the original meaning. Speaking of interpretations others might disagree with, I feel like ja'hailir implies an almost nurturing quality, similar to jahaal. The root almost looks like it comes from jate, hailir, and perhaps haal. My alternative suggestion would be sur'ulur.
5/6: I'm not absolutely certain ibac works as a conjunction like that, but I suppose I don't have a convenient alternative. These are tricky parts. I love the last part of the line, great way to handle it in my opinion.
7: I'd just say gotalu, but there's really nothing wrong with gaigotalu.
8: Shiib.
10: I'm a bit confused, did you change how you wanted to translate method? I'm also confused as to what's happening with the road, as to why there's a conditional for the army arrival, and for what's going on with staabi ( though that's because I use it for direction strictly, perhaps you were using it in a different connotation?)
11: Could be kovide as well. Enteyo for the conjugated form. Buyaci, maybe swap it to the adjective form? Swap tion'ad with meg, "liser cuyir parjir" to "lise cuyir parjila"?
12: Could add o'r before gar. I like duumir for "let" in this context.
13.1: Maybe hailyc? Or even dola?
13.2: Could also just be jate'shya. Also, it can be just meg for these, since it's before a consonant.
13.3: Instead of tayli riye (which feels like a favor instead of an advantage to me) I would make the controversial suggestion of brali, which to me seems to have the connotation of an advantageous position or situation attained.
13.4: I don't think you need ru here.
13.5: Kot'shya.
13.6: Also no ru here, and I wouldn't personally use laam for high here, but that's a matter of opinion. I'd maybe use something from jaon? But I'd have to consider that one carefully. Yours still works okay.
13.7: Ogir isn't right here, use something from cuyir if you don't want to drop the word. Ogir is spatial, not existential. Arasuumir is an iffy choice to me mostly because, while it could suggest stability, it seems more geared towards a negative-opinion meaning of stagnation. Perhaps something from ruusaan?
14: " Verd’alor ibic sushir net miite bal narir bat" -> "Verd'alor meg sushi ner miite bal vaabi val" is my suggestion. Val to refer to the rules might be controversial. I prefer vaabir for these situations, where "to do" means more like the execution of a plan than the simple action narir seems to indicate to me. I like that you used vercopa there instead of something like duumir, since it seems to fit with the aspirational nature of the original.
I'll try to return to go over the rest soon. This is good! A lot of my complaints are really just bizarre stylistic quirks of mine, the majority of the material is going well!
I'm a little conflicted about gotal'mesh for art, since that implies to me "to create beauty" which kiiinda works, but in this context I feel like art more means a skillful execution of a craft. Maybe something from bor as a root?
Line 1, typo on jaon'ycne.
Line 2, I'd say maybe just morut, to keep it noun and noun.
Line 3, I like that you're actually writing in a Mando'a tone, without using every single article. That's great! I'd suggest replace dajuna with ulu, I think it's a bit closer to the original meaning. Speaking of interpretations others might disagree with, I feel like ja'hailir implies an almost nurturing quality, similar to jahaal. The root almost looks like it comes from jate, hailir, and perhaps haal. My alternative suggestion would be sur'ulur.
5/6: I'm not absolutely certain ibac works as a conjunction like that, but I suppose I don't have a convenient alternative. These are tricky parts. I love the last part of the line, great way to handle it in my opinion.
7: I'd just say gotalu, but there's really nothing wrong with gaigotalu.
8: Shiib.
10: I'm a bit confused, did you change how you wanted to translate method? I'm also confused as to what's happening with the road, as to why there's a conditional for the army arrival, and for what's going on with staabi ( though that's because I use it for direction strictly, perhaps you were using it in a different connotation?)
11: Could be kovide as well. Enteyo for the conjugated form. Buyaci, maybe swap it to the adjective form? Swap tion'ad with meg, "liser cuyir parjir" to "lise cuyir parjila"?
12: Could add o'r before gar. I like duumir for "let" in this context.
13.1: Maybe hailyc? Or even dola?
13.2: Could also just be jate'shya. Also, it can be just meg for these, since it's before a consonant.
13.3: Instead of tayli riye (which feels like a favor instead of an advantage to me) I would make the controversial suggestion of brali, which to me seems to have the connotation of an advantageous position or situation attained.
13.4: I don't think you need ru here.
13.5: Kot'shya.
13.6: Also no ru here, and I wouldn't personally use laam for high here, but that's a matter of opinion. I'd maybe use something from jaon? But I'd have to consider that one carefully. Yours still works okay.
13.7: Ogir isn't right here, use something from cuyir if you don't want to drop the word. Ogir is spatial, not existential. Arasuumir is an iffy choice to me mostly because, while it could suggest stability, it seems more geared towards a negative-opinion meaning of stagnation. Perhaps something from ruusaan?
14: " Verd’alor ibic sushir net miite bal narir bat" -> "Verd'alor meg sushi ner miite bal vaabi val" is my suggestion. Val to refer to the rules might be controversial. I prefer vaabir for these situations, where "to do" means more like the execution of a plan than the simple action narir seems to indicate to me. I like that you used vercopa there instead of something like duumir, since it seems to fit with the aspirational nature of the original.
I'll try to return to go over the rest soon. This is good! A lot of my complaints are really just bizarre stylistic quirks of mine, the majority of the material is going well!
Shi adate kotep luubid...
-
Lord Tengu
- Verd
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 30 Jan 2023 03:04
Re: Translating The Art of War
Thank you so much for the help!
This project started when I got into the fanfic fandom, got a brain worm about the art of war, and decided to do it myself… as my first translation project. Sigh. Considering my lack of experience every bit of help is very important to me. So thank you again!!!
I sort of get where you are going with bor vs gotal. But art is not, or at least shouldn’t be, work. And bor feels more like it translates to work than anything else. It is true that art is a skill, but the nature of art implies that skill doesn’t strictly matter. The art of a child or amateur may not be in any way skilled, but that doesn’t make it any less art or important. To call art work… art is a craft, a passion, an expression of self or point of view, and even the most skilled artist make the most soulless “pieces” when they treat the creation of art as work rather than a craft. Gotal feels like it translates more as a craft or creation which allows more expression and flexibility than bor. At the same time, this might be me as an artist overcomplicating things. In context of the art of war, skill is relevant, but I have issues translating art into anything adjacent to work, see artist rant.
1 Whoops missed the typo, thanks.
2 You are right morut makes sense here.
3 Ulur makes much more sense, thanks. And point, sur’ulur works much better.
5/6 Yeah, this was annoying but ibac makes the translation seem to flow better. Shrug.
7 gaigotalu feels like it fits better here than gotalu. Signifies just seems to translate better in this context to designate than to make.
8 Whoops, typo.
10 Aah, I accidentally mixed up method, my bad. The text, in context, is saying the road must be maintained, tayli, so that supplies can reach the army. As for staabi, I took it to have the same meanings as in English, is it only a direction in Mando’a? Serim might fit here instead.
11 Whoops missed the plural kovide, but I’m not sure why I would conjugate enteyor? It kind of feels like it doesn’t need it. Buyaci has an adjective form? Yeah meg makes sense here, but I’m not sure about lise cuyir parjila. Be victorious feels like it fits better translated as parjir because it is the act of being victorious rather than the victory itself. And I’m not sure liser needs to be conjugated? Mind I’m not the best at grammar…
12 Whoops, missed the o’r.
13.1 Point, dolane makes much more sense.
13.2 Whoops, missed the meg vs megin, thanks. Jate’shya is more complicated. I used jatnese be jatnese as a translation for most skilled despite literally being best of the best, because I couldn’t find any other word for skill. I am dubious about putting jate’shya without any word to denote what they are best at. At least jatnese be jatnese implies most skilled/experienced/so on.
13.3 I agree that tayli riye feels like a favor, but I’m not sure about bral. In English the high ground is often used to imply advantage, but in actual life that is not always so. The word feels like a terrain description rather than an expression of advantage in Mando’a. At the same time, I am torn, favor isn’t really a perfect translation. Would bral mean advantage in Mando’ade culture?
13.4 Hmmmm. I’m not sure here. I used the ru to designate done from to do since done was a better translation for enforced. Since enforced is a past tense, vaabi needs it too to imply that discipline is done, enforced, established.
13.5 Whoops yeah thanks for that.
13.6 Same thing with the ru as above, but highest makes more sense to me than over.
13.7 Point, cuyir makes much more sense. And I totally agree about arasuumir, ruusaanyc fits much better.
15 I agree Meg sushi makes sense, but vaabi val doesn’t feel quite right. Vaabi makes sense when executing a plan, but in this context sun tzu is talking about applying his strategic principles. I don’t know, narir just feels it’s flexibility fits more here.
This has been extremely helpful, thank you again. I’m usually the introvert fanfic reader nerd rather than an active forum type of nerd, so thank you for your patience. And many thanks for the encouragement. I’m not sure if forum etiquette says to edit my first post with the edits to my translation or make another post with the updated translation, but I figure I can put that off until I finish the back and forths to my final translation for chapter one.
Ret’urcye mhi
This project started when I got into the fanfic fandom, got a brain worm about the art of war, and decided to do it myself… as my first translation project. Sigh. Considering my lack of experience every bit of help is very important to me. So thank you again!!!
I sort of get where you are going with bor vs gotal. But art is not, or at least shouldn’t be, work. And bor feels more like it translates to work than anything else. It is true that art is a skill, but the nature of art implies that skill doesn’t strictly matter. The art of a child or amateur may not be in any way skilled, but that doesn’t make it any less art or important. To call art work… art is a craft, a passion, an expression of self or point of view, and even the most skilled artist make the most soulless “pieces” when they treat the creation of art as work rather than a craft. Gotal feels like it translates more as a craft or creation which allows more expression and flexibility than bor. At the same time, this might be me as an artist overcomplicating things. In context of the art of war, skill is relevant, but I have issues translating art into anything adjacent to work, see artist rant.
1 Whoops missed the typo, thanks.
2 You are right morut makes sense here.
3 Ulur makes much more sense, thanks. And point, sur’ulur works much better.
5/6 Yeah, this was annoying but ibac makes the translation seem to flow better. Shrug.
7 gaigotalu feels like it fits better here than gotalu. Signifies just seems to translate better in this context to designate than to make.
8 Whoops, typo.
10 Aah, I accidentally mixed up method, my bad. The text, in context, is saying the road must be maintained, tayli, so that supplies can reach the army. As for staabi, I took it to have the same meanings as in English, is it only a direction in Mando’a? Serim might fit here instead.
11 Whoops missed the plural kovide, but I’m not sure why I would conjugate enteyor? It kind of feels like it doesn’t need it. Buyaci has an adjective form? Yeah meg makes sense here, but I’m not sure about lise cuyir parjila. Be victorious feels like it fits better translated as parjir because it is the act of being victorious rather than the victory itself. And I’m not sure liser needs to be conjugated? Mind I’m not the best at grammar…
12 Whoops, missed the o’r.
13.1 Point, dolane makes much more sense.
13.2 Whoops, missed the meg vs megin, thanks. Jate’shya is more complicated. I used jatnese be jatnese as a translation for most skilled despite literally being best of the best, because I couldn’t find any other word for skill. I am dubious about putting jate’shya without any word to denote what they are best at. At least jatnese be jatnese implies most skilled/experienced/so on.
13.3 I agree that tayli riye feels like a favor, but I’m not sure about bral. In English the high ground is often used to imply advantage, but in actual life that is not always so. The word feels like a terrain description rather than an expression of advantage in Mando’a. At the same time, I am torn, favor isn’t really a perfect translation. Would bral mean advantage in Mando’ade culture?
13.4 Hmmmm. I’m not sure here. I used the ru to designate done from to do since done was a better translation for enforced. Since enforced is a past tense, vaabi needs it too to imply that discipline is done, enforced, established.
13.5 Whoops yeah thanks for that.
13.6 Same thing with the ru as above, but highest makes more sense to me than over.
13.7 Point, cuyir makes much more sense. And I totally agree about arasuumir, ruusaanyc fits much better.
15 I agree Meg sushi makes sense, but vaabi val doesn’t feel quite right. Vaabi makes sense when executing a plan, but in this context sun tzu is talking about applying his strategic principles. I don’t know, narir just feels it’s flexibility fits more here.
This has been extremely helpful, thank you again. I’m usually the introvert fanfic reader nerd rather than an active forum type of nerd, so thank you for your patience. And many thanks for the encouragement. I’m not sure if forum etiquette says to edit my first post with the edits to my translation or make another post with the updated translation, but I figure I can put that off until I finish the back and forths to my final translation for chapter one.
Ret’urcye mhi